Episode 429 – An Interview with Tony Simon and a roundtable discussion on Church security with Greg Hopkins, Ben Branam and Laura Carno

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20429.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment: Guest Tony Simon

4- Interview Segment 1: Church security round table Greg Hopkins, Laura Carno, Ben Branam, pt 1

5- Interview Segment 2: Church security round table Greg Hopkins, Laura Carno, Ben Branam, pt 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, November 13th, 2017, I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Tony Simon about inviting minorities to shoot with us.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about guns in church.

Amy: I’m Amy Dillon, and we look at mass murder around the world.

Belle: I’m Belle McCormack and we’ll be covering a DGU involving a kidnapping gone wrong

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we have another case of don’t torque off the old guy… so climb aboard

Amy: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 429 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I recorded another episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories and talked about it on Bill Frady’s radio program, Lock N Load Radio program. I carried every day. I read another chapter of Ken Murray’s book, “Training at the Speed of Life.” I got Dustin Salomon’s new book, “Mentoring Shooters”. I have a lot to read.


John – I am still trying to digest everything I learned at Massad Ayoob’s MAG-20 class. There is so much there. I haven’t started to transcribe my notes yet as Mas said to wait 2 weeks. Other than that, not much gun related news.


Amy – Not a lot of news. Been getting over being sick…I was able to get to the range one day last week at least for some handgun practice. And today I actually toured an AR manufacture company local to me in South Carolina, Lead Star Arms.

Belle- I have no gun related news. I had my first weekend off in a long time, now that classes have wrapped up for the season. I spent my Saturday at my little girl’s wrestling meet-where she won 3 out of 3 and got a 1st place medal. Then took the kids to the range for some plinking at steel on Sunday. And I got my recipes into Susan for the cookbook!



Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Promo about PSP patches


2- News

Mass Shootings and Gun Free Nations

Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Mandalay Bay, Sutherland Springs.  These place names bring about the recollection of mass shooting events.  To the gun banning crowd, they are a call to ban guns from our society.  They claim that the USA is the only nation where mass shooting occur.

Historians know better.


Going back for the last 100 years, we have examples of mass shootings perpetrated throughout Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.  Legitimate and illegitimate governments have been those responsible for these horrendous acts.


June 22, 1941 marks the start of the Nazi German invasion of the Soviet Union.  Special SS units were deployed and would go into villages and round up all the Jews or Gypsies (also known as Roma) and force them out of town.  There they would be all shot at once.  Within a year, their body count had reached about the 1 million mark. Over time the mass shooting squads were replaced with mobile gas vans then extermination camps such as Auschwitz or Dachau.


Prior to World War II, in Poland and the Soviet Union, “no firearm, not even a shotgun” could be legally owned without a government permit.  And if you do not want the peasants to be armed, then you do not issue permits.


In Poland the usual way for the citizens to arm themselves was through scavenging.  Poland had been the battlefields of World War I and the Russo-Polish war and many guns had been left behind with the dead.  The usual practice was to shorten the barrels for concealment.  Another opportunity presented itself then the Soviets retreated out of Poland following the June 22 push by the Nazis into that portion of the country they occupied.


It is estimated that mass murders by governments between 1901 and 1990 topped 169 million.  This does not include smaller scale mass murders and shootings performed by one or two individuals.


The Gun Control crowd will insist that armed self-defense would not have made a difference.  While it is true that they would not have been able to drive back the German Army, armed resistance would have killed some and made the extermination of millions a little more difficult.

Contrary to the claims of the gun prohibition lobbies, sensible policies to minimize mass shootings are not simply a matter of confiscating guns from the law-abiding.  The better approach is to prevent firearm access by those who are likely to use them offensively.  This was adopted by the US in the 1930’s with the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 which prohibited sales to felons.  The NICS system works towards this objective.


The second policy for reducing death tolls is to give lawful defenders the means to resist.  This means eliminating gun free zones for licensed, trained adults such as churches.

The US can never become a gun free nation where resistance to a rogue government could emulate Nazi Germany.  The Property Requisition Act of 1941 was the first to outlaw federal gun registration and confiscation.


Sensible gun laws aim to keep firearms from those who would do evil while fostering the legitimate, defensive uses.  Mass disarmament of citizens is the gateway to more Pulse Nightclubs not the roadblock.


John – I read a short letter to the editor this weekend. It was direct and to the point:  Wanton killing of millions in the name of some bankrupt ideology is a bit more difficult when everybody, not just the elite, are armed.


Rob- I ran the numbers.  Governments are far more dangerous than armed citizens.


Amy – I agree, Gary. We can’t predict the future. The Constitution is in place for the defense of our future.


Gun Quotes

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.  ..to cover with the veil of secrecy the common routine of business, is an abomination in the eyes of every intelligent man, and every friend to his country. Patrick Henry


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Tony Simon and a whole panel to talk about church security.



3- Interview 1- Tony Simon The Second is for Everyone


Belle- (DON’T BE SHY) What’s your secret to creating that comfortable environment? What is your recommendation to other trainers to help break down some of those barriers? What can we do to help you?





4- Interview 2 Church Security Round Table 6:30

Let’s introduce our guests.  Going from east to west, we start with Greg Hopkins from Huntsville, Alabama. Greg is a criminal defense lawyer. He was a city prosecutor, and a city judge. He also teaches self-defense law to church security teams. He also wrote the book, “A Time To Kill: The Myth of Christian Pacifism.”


Ben Branam left the marine corps at the rank of sergeant. He did 1 tour in Iraq with the marines, and another as a private security contractor. Ben worked as church security.  He teaches armed self-defense and church security in San Antonio, Texas.


Laura Carno brought FASTER training to Colorado. Faster training teaches school staff to be first responders. She raised the money. Laura made the political connections, found the instructors, found the training facilities, admitted the first class of trainees, and handled the media relations. She is a political consultant and commentator from Colorado Springs, Colorado.


Laura, let me start with you. We had a mass murder at a Texas church. I looked at the numbers, and the attacks on churches are increasing. Should we worry about church security?


Laura- church as violent as schools. Some parishioners are disarmed by law. Church staff handle health emergencies every week. It isn’t unusual for a medium sized church to have tens of thousands of parishioners, though many won’t come every week. When you’re dealing with a group of that size, you will have problems.


Greg- Should the church protect the congregation and staff, or is that up to god?

Biblical answer

Moral answer

Legal answer

Risk management answer, since churches now run 24-7 and need to protect their staff on the job.


Ben, I’m going to direct this next question back at you.  Greg gave us a big church answer.  Let’s start really small. Should I carry in church?


Now, step a church through a growing security structure. What should they do as they add manpower and resources?

You carry to protect your family.

You and your friends make sure that there are several armed individuals at each service.

The church forms a security team. They want to cover every building at every service. Protect people first.

Expand the security team. Children’s area, parking lots, the minister and his family, VIPs, backstage, staff areas, accounting.

Security for mid-week meetings

Security for staff when open. That may be 24-7.

Security training for the security team members..

Security systems and intelligence. Threat assessment.

Quick Start Outline for a professional security program at www.ModernSelfProtection.com/church


Greg- You teach use of force for churches. What are the steps that churches go through when they decide to implement a security plan. We have a question from our Facebook Live audience, how do they come to be your clients?


Laura, you stepped up and decided to open FASTER training to church staff.

Remind us what FASTER stands for.


So we have to re-label the curriculum as Pastor training, but the same issues apply.


Tell us about that decision to open your training classes to church staff..

Laura- Similar to schools.

Can’t fund churches.


Laura, do you expect any political resistance to teaching church staff?  Will some churches ask the Colorado legislature to make churches into gun-free zones, as if that would make the problem go away?


5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Amy – You picked the wrong house

Phillip Donovan is a police officer for the Denver Police Department.  Donovan works the night shift so he sleeps in the basement of his home in Littleton Colorado.

About 4:30 PM this week, Donovan was asleep when he was woken up by someone breaking into his home.  Donovan responded to the break-in by shooting and killing the home intruder.  Police are calling it a burglary.

Donovan has worked for the for DPD as a police officer since January 2006.

The intrusion had the block taped off by police the night it happened and has the neighborhood talking still.

Keith Mann, who lives down the street told reports, “Gives the intruders something to think about.  It could be the last thing they ever do.”

Another neighbor stated that it got her thinking about what she would do in a similar situation.  She said she would do the same thing.  “My family is way more important.”

“When they break in and barge into our home, we have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves,” Mann added.

Denver Police would not comment on the case but said that off-duty officers involved in shooting are placed on a modified or administrative assignment pending the outcome of the investigation.


Rob- Lock the door. Secure your gun in a way that you can get it quickly.

Paul – The police often get the benefit of the doubt from their co-workers. You or I might not get the same benefit –

Gary – Dr. John Lott Jr.


Gary – Don’t mess with the Old guy

We have told you before not to mess with the old guy.  There is a reason they got the be the old guy.

Timothy Roper, Miranda Murphy and Joshua White thought that they would make an easy score by attacking and robbing an elderly man in Boaz, Kentucky in the far western region of the state.

The man responded to their robbery and assault by shooting Roper in the upper torso.  Roper showed up at a local medical center at about 9::30 PM where he later died.

His two accomplices were arrested the following night by Kentucky State Police.  Both were charged with complicity to commit first-degree burglary and complicity to commit first-degree robbery.  Murphy was also charged with first-degree possession of a controlled substance, that being Methamphetamine.


Rob- Most of the people who commit violent crime are intoxicated.

John – Think to keep in mind that many of these old guys have served in the military.

Amy – Elderly people carry firearms as a tool for self defense because they may have limited physical capability. I am happy that they have a way of defending themselves against violent crimes.


John – Kidnapping gone haywire

A quartet of teenage hoodlums devised an elaborate plan to kidnap the 17 year-old daughter of a man they believed to be wealthy in the panhandle of northwest Florida.  The four had masks, guns, a knife, a roll of tape and latex gloves. They even put construction barrels on the road to the family’s home.

Their hopes were that the barrels would cause the girl to stop and get out of her car.  Instead, she simply drove around them and caller her father to tell him about the roadblocks.

A short time later, the father heard dogs barking and a car door slam.  His motion activated floodlights also came on.  After receiving his daughters call, he was on alert and armed himself as he went to investigate.

What he found was someone attempting to break into his garage.

He fired three shots and the would-be intruders fled into the woods.

Their plan had been to kidnap the girl, then overpower her father in order to rob the home but instead they were caught by police driving a 2016 Jeep Liberty away from the crime scene.

The oldest of the four was 19 and was taken to county jail while the other three are minors and were booked at the juvenile detention center.  They are all facing charges of attempted kidnapping and attempted home invasion robbery.


Rob- He needed to go get his gun. He missed. He may have been shooting at criminals who were running away.

Paul – last 2 stories were multiple attackers.

Rob- Average number of attackers is 2.3

John – Wouldn’t it be nice if short barreled rifles with suppressors didn’t require 6 plus months and a large tax.

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


I just wanted to tell all of you how much I enjoy your podcasts. I’m sorry to hear that Paul won’t be on the air for a while- he will be missed.

I also don’t have any recipes for your book but I do have something that I want to contribute and that I hope you will share with your listeners. I’m also a firearms instructor and I noticed that a few of my students had trouble remembering the proper sequence of steps to unload or clear a semi-automatic pistol properly. They had no problem remembering the four steps but doing them in the correct order was an issue and can be very dangerous. Long story short, I came up with a 13-word rhyme to help them remember. Please read the attached document. It contains the rhyme that I call “The Fifth Cardinal Rule of Gun Safety”.  I really believe that memorizing this rhyme can save lives so I hope that you will share it with your listeners and spread it to other firearm blogs and podcasts the same as you have done with your “POGO”. I love that and share it with everyone I know.

Please send me a reply email  so I know you got this email and keep up the great work you do. If you like this contribution, I have some additional ones I would like to share that may help others as well. Please let me know.

Thank you,

Roger E. Temple- President of Sheepdog Firearm Training LLC



Unloading a Semi-Automatic Firearm


By Roger E. Temple- Sheepdog Firearm Training LLC


Jeff Cooper’s 4 Cardinal Rules of Gun Safety:


  1. “Treat every gun as if it is loaded.” Make sure you prove a firearm is unloaded and then still treat it as if it is loaded- even airsoft and plastic guns.
  2. “Don’t point the muzzle at anything you don’t intend to destroy.” Only point it in a safe direction.
  3. “Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.” Clint Smith says “On target- on trigger. Off target- off trigger.” The most effective safety on every firearm is your extended trigger finger along the frame.
  4. “Know your target and what’s beyond it.” Don’t shoot unless you know where your bullet will stop.


The 5th Cardinal Rule of Gun Safety:


Unloading a semi-automatic firearm that has a detachable magazine is not difficult but the sequence of tasks must be performed in the proper order. If the shooter mistakenly pulls the pistol slide or rifle bolt first, a new round from the magazine will be inserted into the chamber and the gun will still be loaded even after the magazine is removed. The shooter who does this mistakenly thinks that his firearm is now empty when in fact it is still loaded! This is a very dangerous situation and has resulted in many negligent discharges, injuries and even deaths.


Some firearm manufacturers have come up with a mechanical solution for this problem which is called a “magazine disconnect safety”. It’s only available on some firearms: The Ruger SR9, Walther P22 and the Sig Mosquito are a few examples. Any firearm which has a magazine disconnect safety is designed not to fire if the magazine has been removed. Even if the gun was unloaded incorrectly and still has a round in the chamber, it won’t fire once the magazine is removed.


This solution is fine on the guns that have a magazine disconnect safety but what about the millions of pistols and rifles out there that don’t have one? Or what happens if the magazine safety fails? A better solution that works every time is for shooters to learn a simple, 13 word rhyme that I have written. It is so simple that I have even taught it to an eight year old. Once she learned the rhyme, she was able to unload a semi-automatic pistol perfectly by herself every time (using snapcaps of course).


How do you teach a child to remember the alphabet? You use the “ABC’s” song. How do you remember the color sequence on a deadly coral snake versus that on the non-lethal scarlet king snake? “Red on yellow, kills a fellow; red on black venom lack” These two examples use a common memory aid, rhyming, that makes the job of remembering information and proper sequences much easier. Using this technique, I have written a simple rhyme for properly unloading a semi-automatic firearm with a detachable magazine:


“Drop the Mag then Pull the Slide. Take a Look and Feel Inside.”


Did you notice that the first letter of each of the first four significant words are in alphabetical order? What is most important is if you mistakenly start the rhyme with “Pull the slide…” it no longer rhymes. You can only make a rhyme if you say the words and perform the actions in the proper order. Try it for yourself.

Learn the rhyme and save a life!

Please pass this information onto other gun owners. Be Safe.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I have several, but I want to give you one of the comments that I got. One of my reader’s said this.


My other articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


With all the attacks on gun rights from the gun prohibitionists, we need a strong NRA with a strong Board of Directors. Given that 90% of life is just showing up, we need Directors who get to meetings. I posted the attendance records of the existing Board and it isn’t pretty. It is obvious who are the show horses and who are the work horses. To combat this, Adam Kraut has proposed a number of bylaw changes which I fully support. They include soft term limits, attendance requirements for being nominated, and the creation of an Honorary Board. I support these changes and think those listeners who are voting members should give them a serious look.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.



Listeners FB group


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Tony Simon, Greg Hopkins, Ben Branam, and Laura Carno) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Belle: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.